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Questions regarding BABEL Modes

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HB9XCL
Questions regarding BABEL Modes
Hi,
questions regarding the BABEL settings:

According to the documentation, "Mesh Station" defines a station that can communicate to either type of AP (PtP or PtMP) - and to other "Mesh Stations" too? Does it replace the old "Mesh" mode?

If one radio is set to PtP mode, can/should the second one be in PtP mode, too?

Thanks 73s
Kurt
HB9XCL
nc8q
nc8q's picture
According to the documentation, "Mesh Station" defines
Hi, Kurt:

"and to other "Mesh Stations" too?"
No. 
The documentation does not state nor imply that.
-----
https://docs.arednmesh.org/en/latest/arednGettingStarted/node_admin.html...

About halfway down the page...
https://docs.arednmesh.org/en/latest/arednGettingStarted/node_admin.html...

"
Mesh:

Normal AREDN® mesh mode which uses ad hoc peer-to-peer networking to create a mesh.


PtP/PtMP:

Uses infrastructure mode (point-to-point or point-to-multipoint) to limit communication between a single access point (AP) and one or more specified stations.

Mesh PtP defines an AP that communicates with a single station.

Mesh PtMP defines an AP that can communicate with multiple stations.

Mesh Station defines a station that can communicate to either type of AP defined above."

I think a 'mesh station' cannot communicate with a 'mesh' station as that station is in 'ad hoc' mode
nor another 'mesh station'...only a PtP or PtMP node.
IOW...only exactly one other specific SSID (PtP/PtMP) node.
-----

I cringe each time I see the word 'mesh' used.
I would like to see 'Wi-Fi ad hoc protocol' or 'Wi-Fi infrastructure protocol' used instead.
IMHO, 'mesh' is a topology, not a protocol.
:-|

73, Chuck
 

HB9XCL
Hi Chuck
Hi Chuck

Indeed, to have a "mesh" station and a "mesh station" is confusing. Last one should be renamed, as you said.

At our club meeting yesterday evening, we decided to avoid the new modes for the time being, and to also recommend that to our users (which are mainly non-IT people). To have limited connections does not reflect our understanding of an emergency mesh network in general. Additionally the new modes are still far too poorly documented (for example, can a PtMP also communicate with another PtMP? If so, under what topological conditions would this constellation make sense? and so on...).

73s
Kurt HB9XCL

 
nc8q
nc8q's picture
"mesh" station and a "mesh station" is confusing. Last one shou
"mesh" station and a "mesh station" is confusing. Last one should be renamed, as you said. Hi, Kurt: I was trying to say both should be renamed. Hereabouts what is commonly called 'mesh' (mode) is actually 'ad hoc' mode. The new AREDN protocols PtP and PtMP are actually standard 'infrastructure' modes. PtP, PtMP, and 'mesh station' are 'infrastructure' protocols/modes. PtP, PtMP, and 'mesh station' are 'infrastructure' modes and are not compatible with 'ad hoc' modes. 'ad hoc' mode is not compatible with PtP, PtMP, and 'mesh station' (which are infrastructure modes). 73, Chuck
nc8q
nc8q's picture
can a PtMP also communicate with another PtMP? If so, under what
Hi, Kurt:

"can a PtMP also communicate with another PtMP? If so, under what topological conditions would this constellation make sense? and so on...)."

"can a PtMP also communicate with another PtMP?"
Not via RF. Although since 'PtMP' indicates RF, then no.

"under what topological conditions would this constellation make sense? "
Logical sense, 'Mesh' topology. 
Practical sense, up to 3 stations and all 3 can hear the other 2.

73, Chuck
 
K7EOK
Do I understand PtP/PtMP to
Do I understand PtP/PtMP to imply that this allows me to restrict connections via a "white list" of allowed connections, as opposed to the old LQM method of creating a "black list" of MAC addresses?

I also would assume that PtP means both stations would need to enter the other station into their list.  I just haven't tried this yet as I don't want to goof up links remotely managed.  Can a PtMP station have multiple Mesh Stations ... or multiple PtP stations in it's approved list?

Ed
w6bi
w6bi's picture
PtP/PTmP
From the AREDN docs:


PtP/PtMP:

Uses infrastructure mode (point-to-point or point-to-multipoint) to limit communication between a single access point (AP) and one or more specified stations. Mesh PtP defines an AP that communicates with a single station. Mesh PtMP defines an AP that can communicate with multiple stations. Mesh Station defines a station that can communicate to either type of AP defined above.


Orv W6BI
nc8q
nc8q's picture
Can a PtMP station have multiple Mesh Stations ... or multiple P
"Can a PtMP station have multiple Mesh Stations ... or multiple PtP stations in it's approved list?"
"Can a PtMP station have multiple Mesh Stations"?

Hi, Ed:

Following the documentation...when you say 'Mesh Stations' do you mean
'mesh' station or 'mesh station'?

"multiple PtP stations in it's approved list?"
Following Access Point (and AREDN PtMP) infrastructure mode...
a 'mesh station' is a client to a 'PtMP' (access point), so no,
a client cannot have multiple 'access points'.

73, Chuck
 
K7EOK
OK, let's try it this way ...
OK, let's try it this way ...

What is a specified station and how exactly does a operator enter this into the node info?  I don't want to do this on an actual node unless I understand how it's done, by Node Name, by MAC address ... how? 

I assume PtP and PtMP does not affect existing dtd connections?
K6CCC
K6CCC's picture
When you put a station in PtP
When you put a station in PtP or PtMP mode, you specify the MAC of the far end station.

PtP & PtMP have no relationship to DtD.
 
K7EOK
Perfect.  So you need to plan
Perfect.  So you need to plan carefully and think about sequence on remote nodes!  

If node A is set PtMP and node B is set Mesh ... and I want to add B to A's whitelist ... will I be able to see the MAC address of node B even though I'm not taking any traffic from it?  Or do I have to put node A into Mesh node long enough to see and link with B, then put A back to PtMP and add B's MAC address?

Ed
w6bi
w6bi's picture
PtMP
PTmP doesn't use MAC addresses;  the PtMP server has a unique SSID; that's what mesh stations talking to it use.

Orv
nc8q
nc8q's picture
PtMP server
Hi Orv:

Does your 'PtMP server' act identical to a Wi-Fi 'Access Point'?
Linking is done by SSID.

73, Chuck
 
nc8q
nc8q's picture
If node A is set PtMP and node B is set Mesh
Hi, Ed:

"If node A is set PtMP and node B is set Mesh"
Node B must be 'mesh station' not 'mesh'.

73, Chuck
 
K7EOK
OK Orv ... so to recap
OK Orv ... so to recap

PtMP and PtP use the unique SSID of each node (I assume that is the node name?) rather than MAC address.

Your post refers to PtMP server.  I guess that is how one PtMP node controls which Mesh nodes can connect.  If using PtP do both nodes need to be setup as PtP for it to work?  I would assume the node that is PtP would be restricted access but a Mesh node not restricted.

Ed

 
w6bi
w6bi's picture
PtP vs PTMP
The PtP server uses the MAC address of the mesh station to allow the link to be established;  the mesh station needs to be configured as a Mesh Station.
The PTmp server has a unique SSID that the mesh stations need to be configured with.  The mesh stations need to be configured as Mesh Stations.

Hope that's clear.

Orv
nc8q
nc8q's picture
BABEL, like OLSR, is a routing protocol, not a Wi-Fi CLASS
IMHO, although 'BABEL' is in the subject line of the original post,
the query was about link class(infrastructure) and not about link routing(BABEL).

Most of this discussion is about the new station classes available in the new AREDN firmware releases
which now have the BABEL routing protocol.

Wi-Fi has two(?) classes; 'ad hoc' and 'infrastructure'.
The default home Wi-Fi router operates in 'infrastructure' class and in 'Access Point' mode.
The default home device (workstation, thermostat, doorbell, mobile phone, smart TV,...) operates in
Wi-Fi infrastructure class and 'client' mode.

Previously (<2025-12-01?) the only routing protocol was OLSR and the only Wi-Fi class was 'ad hoc'.
Recently Wi-Fi infrastucture classes added were PtP(?), PtMP (think Access Point), and 'mesh station' (think client).

73, Chuck
 

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